Billing stuff

[Paul]

I've been with virgin.net broadband for a bit over a month now. I have
found the connection and general running to be OK - though I can't speak for
their email as I have learned to minimise tie-ins with ANY ISP as it makes
it easier to switch.
However, I am a bit alarmed at their billing system. I recently wanted to
switch to direct debit from my bank account so I went to the appropriate bit
on their website. I went to change my details but the credit card number
and expiry date that were already there bear no relationship to anything I
own. So, I phoned their billing department (I had to get this by phoning
their migration department and asking for the number). Now my account
started on October 20. I am supposed to be billed £17.99 a month on or
around the 20th of each month. The only deduction so far has been £24.99 a
month which was taken around 10th November. They had me on a more expensive
package than the one I asked for (3gb a month is plenty for me) and billed
on the wrong date. I need to keep track of my finances so I need some
degree of competence from them to bill the right amount on the right dates.
As for the wrong credit card details, that is a mystery to me. The guy at
the billing department had the right details but they do not appear on their
website.
Anyway, I do need a better level of competence than this.
I asked for a refund but all he would say is that he will make a "note on my
account". I'm not prepared to accept this. If they don't start getting it
right, I'll be off. I would rather pay more and not have to worry about
whether about whether people dipping their snouts into my credit card funds.
It would be a pity really because £17.99 a month for 3 GB seems OK. I can
get a same price deal from BTYahoo but they only allow 1GB a month (without
webspace or SMTP server too I think). Does anyone know of a reasonably
competent ISP that can match (or nearly match) virgin's deal? Can anyone
explain why the credit card details in the "My Account" section are wrong.
This morning those details have changed but they are still wrong. In fact,
they are not even close as both expiry dates have been in 2003. If this
continues, I could be in danger of tearing out what's left of my hair :-)

Paul (was a silver surfer but now a bald git).

[Dave (Sgt. Pepper)]

Post by Paul
I've been with virgin.net broadband for a bit over a month now. I have
found the connection and general running to be OK - though I can't speak for
their email as I have learned to minimise tie-ins with ANY ISP as it makes
it easier to switch.
However, I am a bit alarmed at their billing system. I recently wanted to
switch to direct debit from my bank account so I went to the appropriate bit
on their website. I went to change my details but the credit card number
and expiry date that were already there bear no relationship to anything I
own. So, I phoned their billing department (I had to get this by phoning
their migration department and asking for the number). Now my account
started on October 20. I am supposed to be billed £17.99 a month on or
around the 20th of each month. The only deduction so far has been £24.99 a
month which was taken around 10th November. They had me on a more expensive
package than the one I asked for (3gb a month is plenty for me) and billed
on the wrong date. I need to keep track of my finances so I need some
degree of competence from them to bill the right amount on the right dates.
As for the wrong credit card details, that is a mystery to me. The guy at
the billing department had the right details but they do not appear on their
website.
Anyway, I do need a better level of competence than this.
I asked for a refund but all he would say is that he will make a "note on my
account". I'm not prepared to accept this. If they don't start getting it
right, I'll be off. I would rather pay more and not have to worry about
whether about whether people dipping their snouts into my credit card funds.
It would be a pity really because £17.99 a month for 3 GB seems OK. I can
get a same price deal from BTYahoo but they only allow 1GB a month (without
webspace or SMTP server too I think). Does anyone know of a reasonably
competent ISP that can match (or nearly match) virgin's deal? Can anyone
explain why the credit card details in the "My Account" section are wrong.
This morning those details have changed but they are still wrong. In fact,
they are not even close as both expiry dates have been in 2003. If this
continues, I could be in danger of tearing out what's left of my hair :-)
Paul (was a silver surfer but now a bald git).

Hi Paul, well I've been with Virgin for several years now and I'm currently
on the £17.99 Broadband package. I use their email service, which, since
they introduced spam filters, seems to be pretty good. I don't use their
Newsgroup service because none of the ISPs seems to be prepared to devote
the investment in servers that a proper newsgroup service requires, so I pay
around £4.70 per month for a Giganews account, which is fantastic.

Your experience with the wrong credit card details being on the website is
somewhat alarming. I have certainly never experienced anything like that.
The sooner you can get your account on to Direct Debit the better because
then you are in complete control and can cancel it via your bank at any
time. I'm not sure you can transfer to DD via the website. I would suggest
sending an email to ***@virgin.net and explain to them the issues
you've experienced and ask them to transfer you to the 3GB Broadband deal
and to Direct Debit as a method of payment. No ISP seems to be without
it's faults, and I doubt you'd get any better service with any other
provider. I'd just concentrate on getting this one sorted out.

[John Cletheroe]

Post by Paul
I've been with virgin.net broadband for a bit over a month now. I have
found the connection and general running to be OK - though I can't speak for
their email as I have learned to minimise tie-ins with ANY ISP as it makes
it easier to switch.
However, I am a bit alarmed at their billing system. I recently wanted to
switch to direct debit from my bank account so I went to the appropriate bit
on their website. I went to change my details but the credit card number
and expiry date that were already there bear no relationship to anything I
own. So, I phoned their billing department (I had to get this by phoning
their migration department and asking for the number). Now my account
started on October 20. I am supposed to be billed £17.99 a month on or
around the 20th of each month. The only deduction so far has been £24.99 a
month which was taken around 10th November. They had me on a more expensive
package than the one I asked for (3gb a month is plenty for me) and billed
on the wrong date. I need to keep track of my finances so I need some
degree of competence from them to bill the right amount on the right dates.
As for the wrong credit card details, that is a mystery to me. The guy at
the billing department had the right details but they do not appear on their
website.
Anyway, I do need a better level of competence than this.
I asked for a refund but all he would say is that he will make a "note on my
account". I'm not prepared to accept this. If they don't start getting it
right, I'll be off. I would rather pay more and not have to worry about
whether about whether people dipping their snouts into my credit card funds.
It would be a pity really because £17.99 a month for 3 GB seems OK. I can
get a same price deal from BTYahoo but they only allow 1GB a month (without
webspace or SMTP server too I think). Does anyone know of a reasonably
competent ISP that can match (or nearly match) virgin's deal? Can anyone
explain why the credit card details in the "My Account" section are wrong.
This morning those details have changed but they are still wrong. In fact,
they are not even close as both expiry dates have been in 2003. If this
continues, I could be in danger of tearing out what's left of my hair :-)
Paul (was a silver surfer but now a bald git).

Paul,

I'm on 24-Seven (unmetered dial-up). So (touch wood) no billing
problems. They even sent me an email to remind me the credit card was
about to expire and therefore needed to be changed. All went smoothly
and they've taken the right amount on the right data each time. So far.

Is there any chance that the web site is getting mixed up between two
users with similar names? But I would have thought the password system
would have prevented any risk of that.

I've a good friend who recommends Tesco as an ISP. For dial-up they
offer much the same as Virgin but I haven't looked at their broadband
offerings (we can't get broadband here yet).

Hope this helps,

John

[Pam Moore]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:35:34 GMT, "Paul"

Post by Paul
I've been with virgin.net broadband for a bit over a month now.
it easier to switch.
However, I am a bit alarmed at their billing system.

I have been on Broadband for a couple of years, and have had no
billing problems. Like John, they emailed me when my card was about to
expire and all has gone smoothly. They gave me a free month after all
the hassle at the beginning of this year! I had no objections to
that!

Pam in Bristol

[Paul]

Post by Pam Moore
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:35:34 GMT, "Paul"

Post by Paul
I've been with virgin.net broadband for a bit over a month now.
it easier to switch.
However, I am a bit alarmed at their billing system.

I have been on Broadband for a couple of years, and have had no
billing problems. Like John, they emailed me when my card was about to
expire and all has gone smoothly. They gave me a free month after all
the hassle at the beginning of this year! I had no objections to
that!
Pam in Bristol

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pam Moore" <***@NOSPAMvirgin.net>
Newsgroups: virgin.feedback
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Billing stuff

Post by Pam Moore
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:35:34 GMT, "Paul"

Post by Paul
I've been with virgin.net broadband for a bit over a month now.
it easier to switch.
However, I am a bit alarmed at their billing system.

I have been on Broadband for a couple of years, and have had no
billing problems. Like John, they emailed me when my card was about to
expire and all has gone smoothly. They gave me a free month after all
the hassle at the beginning of this year! I had no objections to
that!
Pam in Bristol

Thank you for the feedback Pam and John.
Things have moved on since my original message about this issue.
I was supposedly billed £24.99 on 11th November according to the billing
department. This should have only been £17.99 anyway. I have just received
my credit card bill and I was in fact debited £42.48 from my account. Not
only did they get it wrong but the guy at the billing department lied to me
as well. I don't know where they got £42.48 from. If it's meant to be
£24.99 plus £17.99 that equates to £42.98 NOT £42.48. Also, the second
payment wasn't due out until the 21st November anyway. On top of that,
whenever I check my payment details (as I wished to change them) it shows a
different credit card number each time and different expiry dates. It looks
like they are using a random number generator :-(
So, until now, they have put me on a different serveice to the one I asked
for, stolen money from my credit card before the due date, and lied to me.
I just phoned them for a MAC reference to go elsewhere. I've only been with
them since October 20th and I've had enough. I would rather pay more and
not be pissed around quite frankly. Furthermore, I expect to be refunded
any overpayments.
Please don't misunderstand me. I realise that mistakes happen in any
system. We are all imperfect. However, when a mistake does occur and I
notify the company of that mistake, I don't expect them to make a second
mistake and lie to me as well.

Best wishes,

Paul

[Dave (Sgt. Pepper)]

Post by Paul
So, until now, they have put me on a different serveice to the one I asked
for, stolen money from my credit card before the due date, and lied to me.
I just phoned them for a MAC reference to go elsewhere. I've only been with
them since October 20th and I've had enough. I would rather pay more and
not be pissed around quite frankly. Furthermore, I expect to be refunded
any overpayments.
Please don't misunderstand me. I realise that mistakes happen in any
system. We are all imperfect. However, when a mistake does occur and I
notify the company of that mistake, I don't expect them to make a second
mistake and lie to me as well.
Best wishes,
Paul

Simply phone your credit card company and lodge a cancellation of payments
made. This is your right in law. It is then up to Virgin to try and prove
to your credit card supplier that the payments they took from your card were
legal, and from what you've said, they'll have a hard time making any case.

[John Cletheroe]

Post by Paul
Please don't misunderstand me. I realise that mistakes happen in any
system. We are all imperfect. However, when a mistake does occur and I
notify the company of that mistake, I don't expect them to make a second
mistake and lie to me as well.
Best wishes,
Paul

What a tale of woe! I don't blame you for wanting to look elsewhere - John

[DAG]

Post by Paul

Post by Pam Moore
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:35:34 GMT, "Paul"

Post by Paul
I've been with virgin.net broadband for a bit over a month now.
it easier to switch.
However, I am a bit alarmed at their billing system.

I have been on Broadband for a couple of years, and have had no
billing problems. Like John, they emailed me when my card was about to
expire and all has gone smoothly. They gave me a free month after all
the hassle at the beginning of this year! I had no objections to
that!
Pam in Bristol

----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: virgin.feedback
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Billing stuff

Post by Pam Moore
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:35:34 GMT, "Paul"

Post by Paul
I've been with virgin.net broadband for a bit over a month now.
it easier to switch.
However, I am a bit alarmed at their billing system.

I have been on Broadband for a couple of years, and have had no
billing problems. Like John, they emailed me when my card was about to
expire and all has gone smoothly. They gave me a free month after all
the hassle at the beginning of this year! I had no objections to
that!
Pam in Bristol

Thank you for the feedback Pam and John.
Things have moved on since my original message about this issue.
I was supposedly billed £24.99 on 11th November according to the billing
department. This should have only been £17.99 anyway. I have just received
my credit card bill and I was in fact debited £42.48 from my account. Not
only did they get it wrong but the guy at the billing department lied to me
as well. I don't know where they got £42.48 from. If it's meant to be
£24.99 plus £17.99 that equates to £42.98 NOT £42.48. Also, the second
payment wasn't due out until the 21st November anyway. On top of that,
whenever I check my payment details (as I wished to change them) it shows a
different credit card number each time and different expiry dates. It looks
like they are using a random number generator :-(
So, until now, they have put me on a different serveice to the one I asked
for, stolen money from my credit card before the due date, and lied to me.
I just phoned them for a MAC reference to go elsewhere. I've only been with
them since October 20th and I've had enough. I would rather pay more and
not be pissed around quite frankly. Furthermore, I expect to be refunded
any overpayments.
Please don't misunderstand me. I realise that mistakes happen in any
system. We are all imperfect. However, when a mistake does occur and I
notify the company of that mistake, I don't expect them to make a second
mistake and lie to me as well.
Best wishes,
Paul

As a result of this thread I have just checked my account and found both
the credit card number and expiry date to be wrong. I've been with
Virgin broadband for two years and have never had any problems with the
billing. I have contacted Virgin and am awaiting a reply.
My credit card is being correctly debited, so they must have my correct
card number somewhere in there system.

[Paul]

Post by DAG
As a result of this thread I have just checked my account and found both
the credit card number and expiry date to be wrong. I've been with Virgin
broadband for two years and have never had any problems with the billing.
I have contacted Virgin and am awaiting a reply.
My credit card is being correctly debited, so they must have my correct
card number somewhere in there system.

Yes Pam. They do have my correct details logged too - just not on their
website. If you check a day or two later, you may find that there are
totally different wrong details logged for you.
As for me, I am finally managing to drag some kind of sense out of
virgin.net billing department, so I will now pass on their explanation of
what occurred:-

Apparently, although my account started on the 20th October, for some
bizarre reason, my billing date falls on the 10th of the month. The £42.48
that was removed from my credit card account (on the 11th November) breaks
down as:- £17.49 charged from 20th October until 10th November as a
proportion (21 days) of the month charged (wrongly) at £24.99 PLUS the full
month from 10th November to 10th December also charged (wrongly) at £24.99 .
They have now put me on plan 2 (£17.99 a month) which I originally requested
anyway. I reckon that this will leave me about £9 out of pocket (the £7 a
month overcharge from 20th October until 28th November) . They have logged
my being on the wrong plan as a "customer error". It is actually a
virgin.net error but I can't prove it. They say that they cannot (meaning
they WILL not) refund this to my credit card. I have asked them to note
that I dispute this issue but it looks like I will have to swallow the extra
£9 as (1) it's such a hassle to change ISP again (2) it seems to be the best
offer around that also gives use of an SMTP server rather than relying on
web mail.
So I am sticking around. I will email the complaints department (if they
have one) to log my disappointment in writing.
The billing explanation I was given still does not explain why the previous
guy at billing told me a blatant lie, nor does it explain the random number
generator that shows wrong credit card details on the web page.

Now couldn't this company save themselves and their new customers loads of
aggravation if they explained, in advance, what money is to be taken and
when (and why) - particularly in the first few weeks. I believe it was
reasonable of me to assume that the 20th (my date of joining) would be the
billing date. Fortunately, I had plenty of spare credit on that particular
card so there was no danger of me exceeding my credit limit (thereby
incurring a charge). Others may not be so fortunate. In fact, by making my
billing date the 10th, they are charging me about 40 days in advance rather
than the advertised month so they may be in breach of advertising
regulations anyway.

The MAC reference I weas promised has still not been emailed to me either.
I still want it in case this farce gets worse.

All the above could have been avoided. It was virgin.net's poor
communication (and, in one case a blatant lie) that caused all of this.
I'm not yet ready to trust them with my bank account details. If their
billing settles down into a regular correct payment on the correct date for
a few months - then I may start trusting. If they keep screwing up then
I'll be off.

[John Cletheroe]

If they keep screwing up then I'll be off.

I just checked the Virgin Net "Customer Service > My Account > Change
Payment Details" web page. Like yourselves, my credit card details on
that page are also wrong. I tried several times and so far have got two
sets of completely incorrect information.

I've emailed ***@virgin.net to report the problem, and mentioned
that you two had also experienced it (without naming your names). A
reply normally takes about a week.

So far my credit card payments have been taken correctly, so I think
it's only a fault on that web page. However, one of the incorrect sets
of information was for a card which expired in 2003, asking me to supply
new card information, which could be very confusing for people who don't
realise what's going on.

I've been with Virgin Net since 1997. There have a few occasional
hiccups from time to time but overall I think they provide a good
service. They could respond to emails sent to ***@virgin.net a bit
quicker though - in most cases the incident is history before a reply
arrives.

John

[Dave (Sgt. Pepper)]

Post by John Cletheroe
I just checked the Virgin Net "Customer Service > My Account > Change
Payment Details" web page. Like yourselves, my credit card details on
that page are also wrong. I tried several times and so far have got two
sets of completely incorrect information.
John

If the erroneous details being shown are actually someone else's genuine
details, then I imagine that Virgin are in direct breach of the Data
Protection Act.

[John Cletheroe]

Dear John,
Thank you for your e-mail.
Thank you for notifying us of this. You may be pleased to know that
payments will be taken as usual.
The issue is in the proccess of being resolved and will be corrected
shortly.
There is no security threat as it is only the last 4 digits being
shown. You have no need to worry about this.
Sorry for any inconvenience caused.
Kind Regards
Ian
Virgin.net Support Team

John

[John Cletheroe]

1. Service Announcement
Planned Maintenance Wed 1st December
Please be aware that our engineers will be carrying out planned maintenance on Wednesday morning. These should be completed by 09:00am. We regret that registration services will be unavailable during this time.
Virgin.net apologise for any inconvenience caused.
If you're having problems with the Internet (and if you use Virgin Net as your Internet connection provider), check this page before phoning the helpline. We'll tell you what's going on as soon as we're aware of any problems.

John

[John Cletheroe]

I just checked the payment change web page and it seems ok now, so
perhaps that scheduled maintenance isn't related at all?!

John

[John Cletheroe]

Payment details are still ok this morning - John

[Paul]

Post by John Cletheroe
Payment details are still ok this morning - John

That's interesting John. My details are fine too.
Mind you, there is a message on mine that says

"As your card is due to expire this month, our systems are unable to accept
it. Please enter alternative payment method details."

My next payment is due out on the 10th December and my card expires on the
31st December so the message would appear to be an error. Apart from that,
I don't have the replacement card through yet to give them the new expiry
date. Anyway, at least they acted on it when you told them. When I told
them, they just said there was nothing they could do about it. Maybe it's
because you told support and I told billing (it makes me wonder if they
communicate with each other). It looks like the issues I raised have been
resolved. Apart from the issue with the credit card details on the website,
they would never have been issues if virgin had communicated better in the
first place. They still haven't emailed my promised MAC reference.
Although I've decided to stick around a while, they don't know that.
It's a pity that my experience with virgin this time around has got off to a
bad start and it also surprised me. I had a tenner a month dial-up account
with them some years ago and there was never a single glitch (that was back
in the dark old days of paying for a monthly sub AND the phone calls too).
I hope that things work out well this time as well.

Thanks for your input John.

[John Cletheroe]

Post by Paul
"As your card is due to expire this month, our systems are unable to accept
it. Please enter alternative payment method details."

That sounds reasonable to me, bearing in mind that this web page is
really for entering new credit card details, and it wouldn't make much
sense to enter details for a card that will expire in the same month.

Things should work fine if you enter your new card details when you get it.

Post by Paul
They still haven't emailed my promised MAC reference.

Is there any way that you can discover the MAC reference yourself? Have
you tried a search on Google for any information or software which might
help? Sorry if this is a silly suggestion, I know next to nothing about
broadband/ADSL.

Post by Paul
Thanks for your input John.

You're welcome!

John

[Paul]

Post by Paul
"As your card is due to expire this month, our systems are unable to
accept it. Please enter alternative payment method details."

That sounds reasonable to me, bearing in mind that this web page is really
for entering new credit card details, and it wouldn't make much sense to
enter details for a card that will expire in the same month.
Things should work fine if you enter your new card details when you get it.

Post by Paul
They still haven't emailed my promised MAC reference.

Is there any way that you can discover the MAC reference yourself? Have
you tried a search on Google for any information or software which might
help? Sorry if this is a silly suggestion, I know next to nothing about
broadband/ADSL.

Well the MAC reference that I requested on 29/11 finally arrived today by
email. It seems a bit odd that they have taken 9 days to send it to me when
my previous broadband supplier managed to read it out to me over the phone
within two minutes of me asking for it.
I've decided to stay put for now anyway. Hopefully the overbilling that I
was subjected to won't be repeated. Thanks to your feedback (John and Pam)
I realise that I was probably just very unlucky with virgin billing dept.

[hesperus]

I wrote to them on 13th June saying I was leaving on 15th July. Got a full
bill to 3rd August on the 10th July so I cancelled my direct debit
forthwith. I didn't have much hassle finding another ISP by the way. The
only real issue was sorting out my contacts which took a while.

Me? I'm glad to be out! The final straw for me was when they changed my
contract without bothering to check! I could cover it but didn't like it.
After all they insist on us sticking to contracts so why don't they?

R

Post by Paul

Post by DAG
As a result of this thread I have just checked my account and found both
the credit card number and expiry date to be wrong. I've been with Virgin
broadband for two years and have never had any problems with the billing.
I have contacted Virgin and am awaiting a reply.
My credit card is being correctly debited, so they must have my correct
card number somewhere in there system.

Yes Pam. They do have my correct details logged too - just not on their
website. If you check a day or two later, you may find that there are
totally different wrong details logged for you.
As for me, I am finally managing to drag some kind of sense out of
virgin.net billing department, so I will now pass on their explanation of
what occurred:-
Apparently, although my account started on the 20th October, for some
bizarre reason, my billing date falls on the 10th of the month. The
£42.48 that was removed from my credit card account (on the 11th November)
breaks down as:- £17.49 charged from 20th October until 10th November as
a proportion (21 days) of the month charged (wrongly) at £24.99 PLUS the
full month from 10th November to 10th December also charged (wrongly) at
£24.99 . They have now put me on plan 2 (£17.99 a month) which I
originally requested anyway. I reckon that this will leave me about £9
out of pocket (the £7 a month overcharge from 20th October until 28th
November) . They have logged my being on the wrong plan as a "customer
error". It is actually a virgin.net error but I can't prove it. They say
that they cannot (meaning they WILL not) refund this to my credit card. I
have asked them to note that I dispute this issue but it looks like I will
have to swallow the extra £9 as (1) it's such a hassle to change ISP again
(2) it seems to be the best offer around that also gives use of an SMTP
server rather than relying on web mail.
So I am sticking around. I will email the complaints department (if they
have one) to log my disappointment in writing.
The billing explanation I was given still does not explain why the
previous guy at billing told me a blatant lie, nor does it explain the
random number generator that shows wrong credit card details on the web
page.
Now couldn't this company save themselves and their new customers loads of
aggravation if they explained, in advance, what money is to be taken and
when (and why) - particularly in the first few weeks. I believe it was
reasonable of me to assume that the 20th (my date of joining) would be the
billing date. Fortunately, I had plenty of spare credit on that
particular card so there was no danger of me exceeding my credit limit
(thereby incurring a charge). Others may not be so fortunate. In fact, by
making my billing date the 10th, they are charging me about 40 days in
advance rather than the advertised month so they may be in breach of
advertising regulations anyway.
The MAC reference I weas promised has still not been emailed to me either.
I still want it in case this farce gets worse.
All the above could have been avoided. It was virgin.net's poor
communication (and, in one case a blatant lie) that caused all of this.
I'm not yet ready to trust them with my bank account details. If their
billing settles down into a regular correct payment on the correct date
for a few months - then I may start trusting. If they keep screwing up
then I'll be off.